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Política | Actualidad

Cataluña

Aznar y González difieren sobre Cataluña: uno la ve "devastadora" y el otro la califica de "performance"

Los expresidentes del Gobierno Felipe González y José María Aznar han mostrado sus discrepancias sobre la mesa de diálogo entre el Gobierno y la Generalitat, pero han coincidido en la necesidad de penar la 'deslealtad' institucional con mayor dureza

Agencias

27/02/2020 - 17:02 UTC

Madrid

El expresidente del Gobierno José María Aznar considera que la reunión de la mesa de diálogo celebrada entre el Gobierno y el Govern tiene "muy graves consecuencias" y constituye un "elemento devastador para el sistema". Su antecesor, Felipe González ha pedido "desdramatizar", si bien ha reconocido que no era "por falta de preocupación".

Tras indicar que "no pasó nada" en ese encuentro, González ha subrayado que fue una "performance para lo que viene en otoño" con las elecciones catalanas. Aznar le ha espetado entonces al socialista: "Tú no lo hubieras hecho y yo tampoco".

Así se han pronunciado en la apertura del I Congreso Nacional de la Sociedad Civil con un debate centrado en "repensar España", que ha estado moderado por el presidente del Real Instituto Elcano, Emilio Lamo de Espinosa.

"La llave de la gobernabilidad" en manos de Junqueras

Un día después de esa reunión en Moncloa, que encabezaron Pedro Sánchez y Quim Torra, Aznar ha subrayado que, aunque no se produjera ningún acuerdo, el solo hecho de que se celebrara ese encuentro es un "elemento devastador para el sistema".

Aznar ha recalcado que "en democracia las formas son esenciales porque afectan a la esencia del sistema institucional". "Es difícil encontrar un país que le da la llave de la gobernabildiad a alguien que está en prisión condenado por sedición", ha aseverado, para recalcar que el "pacto de lealtad a la Constitución ha sido roto".

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Por su parte, González ha indicado que a él lo que le preocuparía es "el fondo, no que se dialogue". "Me parece bien que se dialogue", ha enfatizado, para añadir después que están en un "bloquismo" y que él "quería desdramatizar" aunque no fuera por falta de "preocupación" ante lo que estaba sucediendo.

"Lo que pasó ayer y pasará mañana y al otro día, no me quiero equivocar, es una performance para lo que viene en otoño, las elecciones catalanas", ha afirmado González, para agregar que "todo el mundo sabe que no hay espacio para la amnistía ni para la autodeterminación". De hecho, ha dicho que si a alguien se le ocurre reformar la Carta Magna para que eso tenga cabida, él hará campaña en contra.

"Tú no lo habrías hecho y yo tampoco"

El expresidente del PSOE ha señalado que "parece" que esa reunión tenía que ver con la aprobación del techo de gasto. "¿Y qué necesidad hay de mezclar una cosa con otra?", se ha preguntado, para pedir a los políticos quitarse "la navaja de la boca" y "reflexionar tranquilamente".

González ha asegurado que el marco de la Constitución y la ley es el "perímetro en el que cualquier responsable político puede y debe hablar". Si alguien rompe o pretende romper ese perímetro, ha avisado, "legitimará a otros a romperlo por la otra parte", llevando a las turbulencias que se han provocado en España en épocas pasadas.

Ante sus palabras sobre la mesa de diálogo, Aznar le ha espetado a González: "Tu no la hubieras hecho y yo tampoco". En su opinión, no se puede aceptar como "normal" que el Gobierno de España tenga una relación bilateral y un diálogo entre iguales con el Gobierno de una comunidad, algo que, a su entender, "choca con la Constitución y la normalidad institucional".

Reforma de la Constitución

González ha afirmado, y Aznar se ha mostrado de acuerdo, que si se reformase la Constitución debería ser para dejar claro "cual es el precio a pagar por la lealtad constitucional", un precio político, ha dicho, al margen de lo penal. En su opinión, si hay una reforma debería penalizarse "políticamente en serio la deslealtad".

Eso sí, González ha dejado claro que, aunque la Constitución se puede reformar hasta en los propios procedimientos para su reforma, él no es partidario de "ablandarlos" porque eso propiciaría "reformitas en una dirección o en otra cada cuatro años". A su modo de ver, una de las fortalezas de la Carta Magna es que no es "militante" y acoge hasta a quienes no la quieren, aunque eso lleve a "espectáculos de cierto bochorno" como que se acate la Constitución para trabajar para destruirla.

"Han roto el pacto del 78"

Aznar ha indicado que hay una "amenaza real" al orden liberal y la democracia y ha subrayado que sus "enemigos" ejercen una "atracción fuerte" sobre muchas capas sociales en muchos países. Por eso, ha dicho que hay "serias razones para estar preocupados".

Además, ha advertido de la falta de confianza en las instituciones y ha destacado que la gente pierde la fe en ellas cuando los políticos que les representan "dejan de creer en ellas". En este punto, ha afirmado que el pacto del 1978 "lo han roto" y ahora hay que "reconstruir la sociedad". "La cuestión es ¿Se puede hacer? Es posible hacerlo ahora? ¿Cómo es posible hacerlo ahora?", se ha preguntado.

En su turno, González ha señalado que hay una crisis de gobernanza de la democracia representativa y ha añadido que están volviendo a "cierto provincianismo" y "ombliguismo". Esa crisis, ha proseguido, lleva implícito que los ciudadanos no se sieten represetados por sus representantes.

Eso sí, ha admitido que lo que se construyó en España con la Transición es" bastante resilente" porque ya han pasado por "arremetidas muy fuertes" y las han "superado" sin "un exceso de trauma". También Aznar ha compartido que España es un país "resistente históricamente", pero ha subrayado que el "problema doméstico" con el independentismo "afecta a la estabilidad en términos de cohesión del Estado y de subsisencia de la nación española".

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type="application/javascript">window.Fusion=window.Fusion||{};Fusion.arcSite="prisaradio";Fusion.contextPath="/pf";Fusion.deployment="1366";Fusion.globalContent={"_id":"BHTGSCJH6ZKM3H5UFN3SP36UEE","type":"story","version":"0.10.7","content_elements":[{"_id":"TBUZJAPFSVAZJB3MR7ZYQXGTMI","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"El expresidente del Gobierno <a title=\"José María Aznar\" href=\"https://cadenaser.com/tag/jose_maria_aznar/a/\">José María Aznar</a> considera que la reunión de la mesa de diálogo celebrada entre el <a title=\"Gobierno de España\" href=\"https://cadenaser.com/tag/gobierno_espana/a/\">Gobierno</a> y el Govern tiene \"muy graves consecuencias\" y constituye un <strong>\"elemento devastador para el sistema\"</strong>. Su antecesor, <a title=\"Felipe González Márquez\" href=\"https://cadenaser.com/tag/felipe_gonzalez_marquez/a/\">Felipe González</a> ha pedido \"<strong>desdramatizar</strong>\", si bien ha reconocido que no era \"por falta de preocupación\"."},{"_id":"7HPNTJ23Y5B2TJOKVS6BW4Y6VU","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"Tras indicar que \"no pasó nada\" en ese encuentro, <strong>González ha subrayado que fue una \"performance para lo que viene en otoño\"</strong> con las elecciones catalanas. Aznar le ha espetado entonces al socialista: \"Tú no lo hubieras hecho y yo tampoco\"."},{"_id":"JOHDSZUPQJDW7AHYDA4LQ4OP4A","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"Así se han pronunciado en la apertura del I Congreso Nacional de la Sociedad Civil con un debate centrado en <strong>\"repensar España\"</strong>, que ha estado moderado por el presidente del Real Instituto Elcano, Emilio Lamo de Espinosa."},{"_id":"RMPA2HUNFRHT7IWRMD624COLXY","type":"header","level":3,"additional_properties":{"tag":"ladillo"},"alignment":"center","content":"\"La llave de la gobernabilidad\" en manos de Junqueras"},{"_id":"JTWXHQCQANFQBDOU2SWNRGJTMI","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"Un día después de esa reunión en Moncloa, que encabezaron <a title=\"Pedro Sánchez\" href=\"https://cadenaser.com/tag/pedro_sanchez_perez_castejon/a/\">Pedro Sánchez</a> y <a title=\"Quim Torra\" href=\"https://cadenaser.com/tag/joaquim_torra_pla/a/\">Quim Torra</a>, Aznar ha subrayado que, aunque no se produjera ningún acuerdo, el solo hecho de que se celebrara ese encuentro es un <strong>\"elemento devastador para el sistema\".</strong>"},{"_id":"YMAI3LDH55FUVPT2DREFC3H2CI","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"Aznar ha recalcado que \"en democracia las formas son esenciales porque afectan a la esencia del sistema institucional\". <strong>\"Es difícil encontrar un país que le da la llave de la gobernabildiad a alguien que está en prisión condenado por sedición\"</strong>, ha aseverado, para recalcar que el \"pacto de lealtad a la Constitución ha sido roto\"."},{"_id":"ZZFVEMWNUJA6JNO3X5YFSHSDLY","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"Por su parte, González ha indicado que a él lo que le preocuparía es \"el fondo, no que se dialogue\". <strong>\"Me parece bien que se dialogue\",</strong> ha enfatizado, para añadir después que están en un \"bloquismo\" y que él \"quería desdramatizar\" aunque no fuera por falta de \"preocupación\" ante lo que estaba sucediendo."},{"_id":"Z46GVR4QDNE2BBU2CZNLZMF77E","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"\"Lo que pasó ayer y pasará mañana y al otro día, no me quiero equivocar, <strong>es una performance para lo que viene en otoño, las elecciones catalanas\"</strong>, ha afirmado González, para agregar que \"todo el mundo sabe que no hay espacio para la amnistía ni para la autodeterminación\". De hecho, ha dicho que si a alguien se le ocurre reformar la Carta Magna para que eso tenga cabida, él hará campaña en contra."},{"_id":"IFJXKGVVM5GSLILLDHQESGYUZE","type":"header","level":3,"additional_properties":{"tag":"ladillo"},"alignment":"center","content":"\"Tú no lo habrías hecho y yo tampoco\" "},{"_id":"3X6DKDZXGFH6XE54QO72QDTWSE","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"El expresidente del PSOE ha señalado que \"parece\" que esa reunión tenía que ver con la aprobación del techo de gasto. <strong>\"¿Y qué necesidad hay de mezclar una cosa con otra?\",</strong> se ha preguntado, para pedir a los políticos quitarse \"la navaja de la boca\" y \"reflexionar tranquilamente\"."},{"_id":"ZWYG7X3N6FC4BP4FXCCEQAXNNE","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"González ha asegurado que el marco de la Constitución y <strong>la ley es el \"perímetro en el que cualquier responsable político puede y debe hablar\"</strong>. Si alguien rompe o pretende romper ese perímetro, ha avisado, \"legitimará a otros a romperlo por la otra parte\", llevando a las turbulencias que se han provocado en España en épocas pasadas."},{"_id":"RADZB2IZPRFOHMKD6WWTMHTTIY","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"Ante sus palabras sobre la mesa de diálogo, Aznar le ha espetado a González: <strong>\"Tu no la hubieras hecho y yo tampoco\".</strong> En su opinión, no se puede aceptar como \"normal\" que el Gobierno de España tenga una relación bilateral y un diálogo entre iguales con el Gobierno de una comunidad, algo que, a su entender, \"choca con la Constitución y la normalidad institucional\"."},{"_id":"37CD333J7JBQJCJXSLNBRRAVEE","type":"header","level":3,"additional_properties":{"tag":"ladillo"},"alignment":"center","content":"Reforma de la Constitución "},{"_id":"BRXQNQABVVEGDOQCZA4CTW7SVI","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"González ha afirmado, y Aznar se ha mostrado de acuerdo, que si se<strong> reformase la Constitución debería ser para dejar claro \"cual es el precio a pagar por la lealtad constitucional\",</strong> un precio político, ha dicho, al margen de lo penal. En su opinión, si hay una reforma debería penalizarse \"políticamente en serio la deslealtad\"."},{"_id":"WF2OM7SKZNBGRLDY5FD2M7NGYE","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"Eso sí, González ha dejado claro que, aunque la Constitución se puede reformar hasta en los propios procedimientos para su reforma, é<strong>l no es partidario de \"ablandarlos\"</strong> porque eso propiciaría \"reformitas en una dirección o en otra cada cuatro años\". A su modo de ver, una de las fortalezas de la Carta Magna es que no es \"militante\" y acoge hasta a quienes no la quieren, aunque eso lleve a \"espectáculos de cierto bochorno\" como que se acate la Constitución para trabajar para destruirla."},{"_id":"WG5E65XP4BB7FAG4E5CPLCVOKQ","type":"header","level":3,"additional_properties":{"tag":"ladillo"},"alignment":"center","content":"\"Han roto el pacto del 78\""},{"_id":"QR57UFWM65BPLDZ45CGKTQW3G4","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"Aznar ha indicado que <strong>hay una \"amenaza real\" al orden libera</strong>l y la democracia y ha subrayado que sus \"enemigos\" ejercen una \"atracción fuerte\" sobre muchas capas sociales en muchos países. Por eso, ha dicho que hay \"serias razones para estar preocupados\"."},{"_id":"USDQK3Q7UJG5VHH6W6CKVAR2RU","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"Además, ha advertido de la falta de confianza en las instituciones y ha destacado que la gente pierde la fe en ellas cuando los políticos que les representan \"dejan de creer en ellas\". En este punto, ha afirmado que <strong>el pacto del 1978 \"lo han roto\" y ahora hay que \"reconstruir la sociedad\".</strong> \"La cuestión es ¿Se puede hacer? Es posible hacerlo ahora? ¿Cómo es posible hacerlo ahora?\", se ha preguntado."},{"_id":"EGJBD26PXJFLFCKH63UKY2I3CY","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"En su turno, González ha señalado que hay una crisis de gobernanza de la democracia representativa y ha añadido que<strong> están volviendo a \"cierto provincianismo\" y \"ombliguismo\"</strong>. Esa crisis, ha proseguido, lleva implícito que los ciudadanos no se sieten represetados por sus representantes."},{"_id":"V2C4BQZFIBCRPAPTKRQLNKB2V4","type":"text","additional_properties":{"tag":"p"},"alignment":"center","content":"Eso sí, ha admitido que<strong> lo que se construyó en España con la Transición es\" bastante resilente\" porque ya han pasado por \"arremetidas muy fuertes\"</strong> y las han \"superado\" sin \"un exceso de trauma\". 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